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Rebecca Thorman

Rebecca Thorman

Rebecca Thorman is a millennial living in Madison, Wisconsin. Rebecca is the Executive Director of a young professional organization whose mission is to attract and retain young talent and leadership in order to contribute to the regions' economic, civic, social, and public policy futures. She is from Champaign-Urbana, Illinois and is a recent graduate of the University of Wisconsin – Madison.

Rebecca aspires with her generation to be an entrepreneur and in her spare time she works obsessively on her blog, Modite. On her blog, she gives advice to navigate beyond the line of work and play, based on real experiences. It's engagement for the next generation. Read more at modite.com/blog.

Debate: Do women need men and/or children in order to be fulfilled?

This post is an opening argument to the question, “Do women need men and/or children in order to be fulfilled?” The opposing viewpoint, from www.thestateof.com, can be read here.  A brief excerpt of the opposing view follows below.

Generation Y Breeds a New Kind of Woman, by Rebecca Thorman.

Women need men. Just not like we used to.

While career guru Penelope Trunk insists that we will find deeper fulfillment from relationships over work, others like Hannah Seligson wonder why we can’t talk about “young women and careers without talking about the hunt for a husband?”

Generation Y women don’t relate to either. We don’t live container lives, with work and family and play muffled under air-tight lids. Our life bleeds together, and instead of a singular goal of family or career, we lead our lives as a continuum, family and career ebbing and flowing.

The reality of young women’s lives today is that we want it all, despite the warnings. While coming of age during 9/11 reinforced that family is deeply important to us, we were also raised to believe we could do and be anything, especially equal to men professionally.

It’s not about prioritizing one over the other, nor is there a single answer that works for everyone; there are extremes at either end. What remains consistent in women, however, is their sense of increasing independence.

Whether we check off men, children, career, or all of the above, the fact is that we have a choice, and what fulfills and limits us is not created by society and media, but increasingly our own desires.

As a result, our roles are changing. Women are becoming the leaders, and men the supporters. Even in relationships where children are the priority, and the woman chooses or is able to stay at home, women take on the dominant role, commanding a deeper respect than any time in history.

Many view the shifting roles as threatening the very basis of our biology. But it isn’t. It is simply uprooting the traditional western viewpoint.

Indeed, while spouses and children still rank as a source of fulfillment for women above careers, one’s personal fulfillment is increasingly not just augmented by, but necessitated by professional fulfillment as well.

Bored with motherhood and marriage, we savor the challenge of work. Michelle Obama said in a recent interview, “I love losing myself in a set of problems that have nothing to do with my husband and children. Once you’ve tasted that, it’s hard to walk away.”

Women don’t need men or children for fulfillment. They might get on okay with a cat, or their career, or another woman. But really, Generation Y doesn’t need much. We’ve been coddled and spoiled, and have long surpassed what we might need, and are instead creating what we want.

And what we want is to define a new kind of woman.

The kind of woman who is a compassionate alpha. The Generation Y woman has leadership and strength, and promotes community and empathy. We don’t dismiss motherhood, but embrace our strengths and use those to change the workplace, reaping from it a greater sense of fulfillment than ever before.

It is not a coincidence that at a time when power-hungry hierarchies are being broken down, women are leading and infiltrating the workplace. It is our skills and talents that have created such an influential shift.

Generation Y women are high-achievers, shrewd, well-dressed and sexy, while possessing an emotional intelligence that far surpasses our male counterparts. We don’t rule by insecurities or fear, but by knowing ourselves well, and seeking connection with others. We combine “physical potency with seriousness of purpose.

In short, we’re women. We strive to be who we are, in our sexual identities, and in how we construct our personal and professional lives. We acknowledge our own complexities.

Our personal and professional lives are blurred more than ever before, and a woman’s strength in today’s society is the fact we are true to ourselves -- more so than any other generation -- because past generations fought for our right to do so.

Rebecca Thorman writes at modite.com/blog.

From www.thestateof.com:

It is said that famed feminist Gloria Steinem once quipped, "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."  Well, if that's the case, fish need bicycles.
 
In heterosexual marriage, the male wins a woman's trust (i.e., love) through courtship.  A woman cannot love a man she cannot trust.  In return, she gives him the power to love her. This exchange of power for love is how a man and a woman become one, which is the primary goal of marriage.  It is the psychological key that allows us to grow.  Sex is the symbol of this permanent and exclusive bond.  Without this growth and this bond, the lives of most people are unfulfilled.

To read more, visit www.thestateof.com.

You should be aware that many of us professional men do not date or marry professional women. Tradesmen tend to marry in their early 20's. The reasons why we do this are:
1. Non professional women often make better wives, as they do not have to work long hours and thus can spend more time looking after our children.
2. Education systems in the industrialised world are set up to benefit women. Us professional men thus feel short changed by the system and we react by denying what most women want regardless of if they are professional or not, a loving husband and children.

Posted by Anonymous 5:29am , October 26, 2009

Let's face it, as long as we girls have money, we're happy. We don't need men, just sperm donors. Sure, we love our kids, but if we don't have the money to support them, we just complain and complain. I married a rich guy, so everything is fine with me. You should do the same! Marla

Posted by Marla 3:37am , January 20, 2009

There is no balance. My fiance and I are at a cross-roads, and while I would like to say I can juggle it all and rule the world, I can't rule the world, have a life with my future husband and have a family too. It is all about choice, and I am greatfult that this is a choice I get to make. I will never be a stay at home mom, I can't stand the thought of giving up all that I am to be called mom. What I do now is that in the grand scheme of tradeoffs a woman can be a career woman, wife, and mother, just not while putting in 70 hours a week. So the question is what makes you happy? If you want to be super career woman, don't have kids or a husband for that matter. Just because men do this does not mean it works. Equality should not mean abandoning a life for a desk ladies. Its time to step up and realize that you should do what makes you happy and it is no one's business if that includes kids and a nanny while working or staying home. We no longer have to stay home, but I can't judge a woman for having to make the difficult decision between scaling back on a career or leaving it altogether, and the same goes form men.

Posted by Anonymous 12:56am , April 13, 2008

Dina, Simone de Beauvoir was a victim of a bad translator. The English version distorts her actual words. Anyway, I don't think de Beauvoir is a big influence among today's feminists.

Posted by Anonymous 5:49am , October 23, 2007

Emory, I appreciate your thoughtful response.

But let me ask you this.

When a woman works 60-80 hours per week, while leaving her children at home with a nanny (assuming she doesn't "have" to work, but does so by choice), is she not subscribing to the "extreme" form of feminism that I describe?

Does it require an affirmative declaration to Gloria Steinem feminism to subscribe to it or is it enough that actions speak louder than words?

You know, I've heard all the arguments about all that feminism has done for me, but I find that hard to believe. To buy that argument, we have to believe that women were helpless invalids before the Messiah Gloria Steinem arrived and, without her, we'd all be being whipped and beaten daily. I find that difficult to believe. And, that sounds like religion to me. No?

There were great women long before CIA operative Gloria Steinem interjected herself into people's lives. Harriet Tubman didn't need a feminist's permission to take charge. Amelia Earheart didn't need a feminist's permission to take on the flying challenge. I'd be shocked to hear that Mother Theresa worried about feminist opinion before setting out on her life's work.

Posted by Dina 5:14pm , October 22, 2007

Anne,

Feel free to hurl all the personal attacks and innuendo but, what I find remarkable in all this, is that you still have not responded to the argument on the merits.

All this talk of a balanced life and I have yet to hear what that balance looks like. Perhaps because it doesn't exist. Yet another lie of feminism. Trying to be a mother and a full-time employee is like trying to be a full-time lawyer and a full-time doctor. You would look at someone like she had lost her damn mind if she suggested she could balance being in court during the day and doing surgery at night.

That is a recipe for disaster.

This idea of the happy balance is another rationalization for immature women who can’t or won’t made adult choices. Rather than make choices, as wise and mature people do, they act like children and insist on having everything. They never succeed, however (no matter how many therapists say so) and, instead, half-ass two things.

Then they wonder why their boys are making bombs in the garage and why their daughters end up in Girls Gone Wild videos. “Gosh, I got them the best private schools and nannies money could buy.”



Posted by Dina 5:05pm , October 22, 2007

I dunno, Dina, but in my experience, when someone criticizes the choices of others this strongly and depicts them as harshly as you do when there's really no need for that, that person is usually trying to prove something to themselves. Maybe you are unhappy with some of your choices and need to take down women who made different ones so that you feel like your choices were good, I dunno. What I do know is that you seem hell bent on generalizing and depicting women who try to lead balanced lives as selfish misguided fools and I just don't see how you can feel that way as strongly as you do if you don't have a chip on your shoulder. I don't know what it is but perhaps you should think about your own choices instead of worrying about the ones others make.

Posted by Anne S 4:39pm , October 22, 2007

Dina, I don't know about Anne but I absolutely get into those nuances. True, there are certain assumptions I can make about a democrat that are likely true but I know when I make them that they are just assumptions flowing my understanding of what a democrat generally is. If I was dealing with an individual who is a democrat and I cared to learn about his/her politics, I would delve and see. Same is true for feminists. There are some principles that all feminists share, for example, that women should be the master of their own destinies but beyond that, different people believe different things. The brand of feminism that I see you attempting to dismantle here is a very extreme form and is not shared by many of the women I know (though some of my friends do subscribe to it), who nevertheless believe themselves to be ardent feminists. I think you need to be careful when you throw this word around and ascribe to it some extreme notions that contribute to a bad stereotype. Feminism has done a lot for you, whether you choose to admit that or not and you should have some respect for the general principle feminism is all about: advancing women's freedom.

Posted by Emory 4:31pm , October 22, 2007

I dunno Anne.

When someone says he or she is a Republican or an Evangelical, do you get into the same nuances you demand here of whether they believe exactly what the rest of the Republicans or Evangelicals believe?

I doubt it.

Posted by Dina 4:07pm , October 22, 2007

Since when does feminism not mean different things to different people? Some of you are acting as if feminism has one definition and it doesn't -- that's like saying that all democrats have the same views. Feminists (and democrats, etc.) run the spectrum and I think one of the reasons that feminism gets a bad wrap is that people who are not feminists like to attribute extreme views to feminists to make feminism objectionable. Feminism, fundamentally, argues that women should be self-determined. And that means different things to different people.

Posted by Anne S 2:11pm , October 22, 2007

Rich,

No one is arguing that there is only one path for women. That is, except feminists.

"No women should be authorized to stay at home and raise her children," said feminist founder Simone de Beauvoir. "Women should not have that choice, because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one" (Saturday Review, June 14, 1975). If feminism were really about choices, it would not indoctrinate women to enter the work force and become "independent." It would not demonize men and heterosexual love.

It has become quite fashionable to attack those who believe in family and values, but somehow feminists and their ideology are off limits?

Double standards. Hypocrisy.

Posted by Dina 2:06pm , October 22, 2007

Both J and Thorman make the point we all should talk from this: Men and women are different, there needs and paths to fulfillment are different, and we should never attempt to confine women in neat little boxes. J admits that there is nothing wrong with women having families and Thorman acknowledges the important of families in women's lives.

Both posts recognize that there is more than one path to fulfillment. And in either path ("feminist" or "traditional") there is a chance you will be fulfilled or disappointed. This has always been the case. Madame CJ Walker was a business woman in Harlem over a hundred years ago. She was a "professional" woman we typically think of as fulfilled. And I'm sure anyone reading this can think of countless grandmothers, mothers, and aunts who were stay-at-homes and were fulfilled. On the other hand, there are countless examples of those who became disappointed with there path. Can any of us say Walker or our stay-at-home aunts were on the wrong path? One thing is certain (besides that they didn't know what the hell "Gen Y" was): those who chose the disappointed path were very likely on the wrong one. So, to echo J, we should never confine women only to certain limited paths that may lead to disappointment or ruin.

We gotta get away from thinking there is one path for a woman (or for anyone). No one reading this is on the same path they were 10 years ago, 1 one year ago or, sometimes even a month ago.

The fact that we have these two posts is an acknowledgment that a woman's life can be as deep and as layered as she wants it to be--no matter which path she walks.

Posted by Rich 1:47pm , October 22, 2007

Janet,

You build up a straw man just to knock it down. Your friends' examples mean absolutely nothing.

It sounds like you surround yourself with women with no self-esteem (which, funny how career hasn't provided that) who don't make good decisions and then you lay the blame at marriage.

For every woman who chases diapers, blah, blah, there are 10 women who are chasing deadlines, dealing with a boss they hate, etc. At least at the end of the day, when it is all said and done, the woman with children will see the fruits of her labor. I highly doubt the working childless woman at 50 will regret that she didn't put in more hours at the office. But I'll bet you money she'll regret not having children.

Accuse me of jealousy all you like, but I've been there done that. Working single woman with lots of money to burn and all the fun in the world to have. And it's an incredibly unfulfilling life, no matter how many hobbies and volunteer activities you pack it with.

Perhaps one day you will get lucky and a man will save you from your life of a spinster. Because all those "choices" aren't going to keep you warm at night honey. LOL!

Posted by Dina 12:36pm , October 22, 2007

@ Janet - Thank you for providing another great viewpoint. It is because of the examples that you illustrate that reinforces the notion that I want not just a family, but a career as well!

@ Sara - Thank you for such a succinct summary! :)

Posted by Rebecca Thorman 10:43am , October 22, 2007

@ Dina - thank you for commenting. I have replied to your comments on my blog already, so I will not go into it again, but I appreciate you sharing your viewpoint on Damsels as well!

@ Anonymous - Thank you for your comment. I'm not quite sure what is wrong with idealism and why others seem so determined to strip Gen Y of it.

Every generation improves upon the generation before it. I agree. Is it wrong to talk about our dreams and what we'd like to do as a generation? I think not. It's quite probable that there will be nothing but "incremental" change, as you put it, from Generation Y women. But why shoot for just incremental change? Why not shoot for the stars and see where that takes us?

I have no doubt that we'll experience many of the same problems as past generations. Hopefully, we can learn from what you have done. What is different, vastly different in my opinion, however, from Generation X is that Gen-Y operates out of idealism and Gen-X operates out of cynicism. One is not bad or good, but it is a big difference.

I identify myself strongly with Gen-Y because I run a young professional organization. It's my job to know what Gen-Y and Gen-X are all about. I write more about Gen-Y because that's the group I fall into.

Thank you again for your comment. I appreciate your honest response!

Posted by Rebecca Thorman 10:41am , October 22, 2007

I think Rebecca makes an excellent point - women should define success for themselves and, if that means having kids, great. If not, great. It's that simple.

Posted by Sara 10:29am , October 22, 2007

OMG! Dina, you "pity" Gen X and Y women? I pity you. You obviously have some serious issues. Perhaps jealousy of the freedom and free time that women without children have? A husband and children aren't the answer for every woman and it's high time we quit making young women think that is the end-all, be-all of life. A friend of mine "chose" to get married to a lawyer, have 3 kids and be a stay at home mom. To someone on the outside looking in, she has everything, but the truth is her husband has fathered a child with another woman, her days are filled with nothing but changing diapers, cleaning the house, and running errands for her husband. She keeps getting more and more plastic surgery in order to attempt to hold on to her husbands interest, oh, and she's addicted to methanphetamines and xanax. I've chosen not to have children and I absolutely love my life. I have a career that I love and I spend my free time volunteering and being active in the community (not eating cereal and watching Desperate Housewives). That is a choice I made and I am glad I didn't succumb to the pressure of motherhood, only to wake up one morning and wonder whose life I'm living. Marriage and children is not the only choice that leads to happiness and fulfillment. Another friend of mine is from a culture that mandates marriage and children for women. She is a smart, funny, successful career woman with no interest in marriage or children, but has basically resigned herself to that life because her family insists on it. She is actually considering asking her family to arrange a marriage for her because she's not interested in any of the men of her culture she meets. That is so unbelievably sad. How would you like to be the children of either of these women? One escapes the sad realities of her life in addiction and the other chooses motherhood by default. I'm joyful to be part of a generation and a culture that allows me to choose.

Posted by Janet 10:17am , October 22, 2007

I am a feminist and a professional woman but, Rebecca, there is an arrogance and idealism to your viewpoint that I find annoying. You make Gen Y women sound like THE generation of women that is getting to reap the rewards of all the hard work women before you have done and, somewhere in there, it sounds like you think that Gen Y women are the chosen ones or something, and that you live in a world akin to heaven. You aren't and you don't. Things have not changed that much for women over the last couple of decades. The only difference between Gen X women and Gen Y women is that you think you are more self-determined than any other generation of women. Not true. It's typical of every generation to think its better and better-positioned than the last, and its often true, but I don't think that the lives of Gen Y women are going to be so much better or well thought out than those of Gen X women. And, that's not a bad thing, because I don't exactly think Gen X women are suffering. Gen X women are pretty self-determined, and you're no more self-determined than them. So much change took place in the 60s and 70s -- big changes -- that women became about as equal as we might ever be, and women who grew up in the 70s and 80s (gen xers) never were told they couldn't do something because they were a woman either. Since then, we've only seen incremental changes - usually legisltaive - and those don't alter the landscape so drastically that Gen Y women are going to have a whole different experience. I agree that Gen Y women have a different attitude but I think it's just arrogance that you're the special generation. Maybe that will help you, in which case more power to you, but I doubt it will. I think you'll struggle with a lot of the same issues Gen Xers struggle with like balancing family, etc. Those will never go away. Overall I just think that you care too much about being a Gen Yer - I read some of your blog and it's all about that. It's interesting that you identify so strongly this way but I just don't get it. It's like a little religion in which you think only you're the ones going to heaven or something -- Gen Yers have the best attitude, they have the most choices, they understand what fulfillment is, blah blah blah.

Posted by Anonymous 9:51am , October 22, 2007

Reducing this entire discussion to “choice” misses the point.

We’re not talking about a fast food restaurant with 100 choices of toppings for pizza. We’re talking about what fulfills people. At the foundation of fulfillment is what you value. If you value money, then maybe work is fulfilling. But if you value family and human relationships, work will be a huge impediment to your fulfillment. I don’t need 10,000 choices if I have a clear sense of what I value.

Ask anyone who has cable tv about the utility of 500+ “choices” for what to watch. Does that mean all the choices are equal? Does that mean any of those “choices” will be appealing?

Isn’t that the sales pitch of DirecTV and all the cable companies - “more choice”, “more options”, blah, blah, blah? Somewhere in the fine print, maybe one day they will be honest and tell you that all the choices and options are crap. Isn’t it sad that all feminism has to offer women is a cable company ad?

The problem with feminism and all this hooha nonsense about “choice” is that it has made the availability of choice an end in itself. Rather than provide values to people, rather than provide guidance and wisdom, women are convinced that having 10,000 choices in shoes is fulfilling. One of the lawyers I work with can spend an entire lunch talking about the latest Sex And The City episode and which shoes whatever bimbo in that show just had to have. By the time I escape from her moronic clutches, I have to go do logic puzzles just to recover the IQ points lost during the exchange. I don’t know about you, but I don’t define that as “success”. It’s pathetic.

Perhaps it’s time for women to re-define their ideas of success.

I work with plenty of female entertainment executives who, notwithstanding their million dollar paychecks, are mean and bitter. One pretty high level executive is so pathetically desperate for a man that she asks everyone to fix her up. I don’t know about you, but I don’t define that as “success”. I’ll take my husband over her paycheck ANY DAY.

What we have is Generation Y of women who have ZERO values. ZERO guidance because Generation X is flailing. They are unanchored to anything, they know deep down they are miserable, but can’t manage to escape from the feminist prison they have built in their own heads.

They don’t know how to relate to men, neuter any man who comes close and then wonder why the $100+K they make each year doesn’t satisfy that deep hunger for companionship that gnaws deep down. They sit at home alone each night at work eating cereal for dinner, watching Desperate Housewives, hoping that this week’s therapy session will be the breakthrough. I don’t know about you, but I don’t define that as “success”.

And I’m not making up this stuff. I’ve worked with this composite character of a “successful” woman since I graduated from law school eight years ago. Every happy, truly fulfilled woman I’ve met has a good husband and wonderful children who she makes her top priority.

Sure, these poor spinsters have plenty of “choices” but, unfortunately, have absolutely no sense of values or wisdom to guide them in making those choices. Then they go on a show like The Bachelor and cry because their “eggs are rotting”.

Generations X and Y elicit nothing but pity from me.

Posted by Dina 9:15pm , October 21, 2007

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